Post Season MVPs versus their past or future teams - Another insane Sully Baseball list

For those of you who read my blog regularly, you know that every once in a while an idle thought would enter my cranium and it would evolve into me doing an elaborate list writing entry here.

My entire 800 page Home Grown vs Acquired Series started from the simple question "I wonder if the Red Sox had better luck acquiring players from other teams or developing their own talent."

I chronicled how my ideas can germinate into a blog post with my "Making of a Blog Post" entry. Well it happened again.

While on the treadmill watching coverage of the Yankees and Rangers courtship of Cliff Lee, I thought "The Yankees are trying to bring in a guy who consistently beat them in October. I wonder how many players have joined a team they beat in the playoffs."

Later I got more specific. "I wonder how many times a playoff MVP joined the team that he beat."

Then I thought "I wonder how many playoff MVPs won their award against a team they USED to play for."

And finally the question "How many players won a playoff MVP and then later played in the post season AGAINST the team that he won the award for?"

This is how my mind works, people.

And I can't just leave these thoughts hanging.
I have to list them.

And I did.

Post Season MVPs who joined the team they beat

FRANK ROBINSON
1966 World Series MVP for the Baltimore Orioles against the
Los Angeles Dodgers.
Joined the Dodgers in 1972





KIRK GIBSON
1984 ALCS MVP for the Detroit Tigers against the
Kansas City Royals
Joined the Royals in 1991





DENNIS ECKERSLEY
1988 ALCS MVP for the Oakland Athletics against the
Boston Red Sox
Joined the Red Sox in 1998




OREL HERSHISER
1988 NLCS MVP for the Los Angeles Dodgers against the
New York Mets
Joined the Mets in 1999.





RICKEY HENDERSON
1989 ALCS MVP for the Oakland Athletics against the
Toronto Blue Jays
Joined the Blue Jays in 1993





RANDY JOHNSON
2001 World Series Co-MVP for the Arizona Diamondbacks against the New York Yankees
Joined the Yankees in 2005.

Post Season MVPs who beat
a team they used to play for

LEW BURDETTE
1957 World Series MVP for the Milwaukee Braves against the
New York Yankees.
Played for the Yankees in 1950.





MIKE SCOTT
1986 NLCS MVP for the Houston Astros against the
New York Mets.
Played for the Mets from 1979-1982





DENNIS ECKERSLEY
1988 ALCS MVP for the Oakland Athletics against the
Boston Red Sox
Played for the Red Sox from 1978-1984





JOSE RIJO
1990 World Series MVP for the Cincinnati Reds against the Oakland Athletics
Played for the Athletics from 1985-1987

Post Season MVPs who later played against their team in the Post Season

DON LARSEN
1956 World Series MVP for the
New York Yankees
Pitched in the 1962 World Series for the San Francisco Giants against the Yankees





REGGIE JACKSON
1973 World Series MVP for the
Oakland A’s
Played in the 1981 ALCS for the New York Yankees against the A’s






I find it interesting that Dennis Eckersley appeared on the list twice.
I am guessing you did too.

Johnny Podres was a Padre?

How did I not know that before tonight?

He was a member of the 1969 Padres.... their first season.
And I am convinced the GM signed him for the Abbott and Costello esque confusion of "Who's pitching for the Padres?" "Podres." that must have happened that year.

It's a tragedy that Billy Brewer never played for Milwaukee.

Of course it was Troy F---ing Glaus

The MVP of the 2002 World Series... the man who sunk the Giants that year... OF COURSE he's the guy starting the gut punch double play to kill the rally in the 10th.

Bad things happen when he plays the Giants.

Bad Luck Hamels

There were many story lines to last night's wild Phillies/Astros opus.

Jimmy Rollins game tying 9th inning homer? Clutch.
Ryan Howard getting called out on a check swing in extra innings? Borderline.
Some umpire named Scott Barry trying to prove to the world how tough he is by tossing Ryan Howard? Bush League.
Roy Oswalt playing left field? Little league.
Roy Oswalt coming to the plate as the potential winning run in the 16th? Nuts.

But here's something that got lost in the shuffle:
Cole Hamels pitched great AGAIN... and has nothing to show for it.

When I pitched that Felix Hernandez should get serious Cy Young consideration even with a losing record, one of my readers named Ed wrote "A pitcher's win-loss record must be the silliest stat in baseball."

I don't 100% agree. The pitchers job is to get the team in position to win the game, Ed has a point when evaluating the recent pitching performance of Cole Hamels.

Hamels began the season with a poor April, a good May and a bad June, prompting the Phillies to deal for Roy Oswalt (and basically admit they f---ed up when dealing Cliff Lee.)

But in July, he posted a 2.16 ERA and nearly averaged 7 innings a start, nearly a strikeout an inning and a 2.86 strikeout to walk ratio.

He's kept it up in August. Including tonight's 7 inning, 2 run, 8 strikeout and 1 walk performance, his August numbers include a 3.17 ERA, 6 2/3 innings a start, 42 strikeouts and only 4 walks.

His record over July and August? 1-4.
He is winless since the All Star Break.

He threw 8 innings of 1 hit shutout ball on July 22nd against St. Louis and got a no decision.

He had back to back starts against the Mets recently... one he threw 7 innings, 1 run, 11 strikeouts, no walks... LOSS.

His next start he threw 8 innings, 1 run, 8 strikeouts, 2 walks... LOSS.

He's been throwing at least like a true #2 and like what most teams would want from their #1 starter. (If he threw like that in Game 3 of the World Series last year, the Phillies would probably be the back to back defending World Champions.)

This is a guy who is pitching lights out and oh yeah... has an NLCS and World Series MVP trophies sitting on his mantle. If he pitches like this in October and goes in the #3 slot behind the two Roys, the Phillies would be so scary that not even Brad Lidge coming out of the bullpen could stop them.

It would be nice if the Phillies could hit for him.
Someone pitching THAT well shouldn't be tied with ME for second half wins.

The All Time Saves Leader Will Soon Be A Hall of Famer Again

Is Mariano Rivera the greatest reliever of all time?

Maybe.

Even though I am a Red Sox fan, I have given Rivera plenty of love on this blog.

I practically wrote a love letter to him last June.

Last November I said he should have been the World Series MVP over Hideki Matsui.

I also said he should have won the Babe Ruth Award over A-Rod.

I said he was what made the Yankees better than all the other playoff teams.

Now his place among relievers in history can be debatable. Certainly Rollie Fingers and Rich Gossage deserve a lot of praise (how many more saves would they have if they were one inning specialists instead of going 2 or 3 innings a save?)

But one thing is for certain... Rivera will soon be the All Time Save king.

Pirate Catcher Ryan Doumit is making sure of it.

Doumit has been a one man wrecking crew of Trevor Hoffman... the current All Time Saves leader.

He hit a 9th inning grand slam on Tuesday and a game tying homer yesterday to give Hoffman back to back blown saves.

Hoffman has already blown 4 saves this year... and his ERA is 13.00.

It's early but it isn't THAT early. He's 42 years old. And despite a solid year last year, it isn't a stretch to say 42 year olds off to bad starts might not be in a slump. They might be out of gas.

And a team like the Brewers, who have a shot to win and a small window of opportunity to do it, can't afford a closer who lets up nearly a run and a half an inning.

Even Ken Macha, who no doubts respects the hell out of Hoffman, hinted that a change might be coming.

Which means his save total might finally stop piling up.

Hoffman has 594 saves now.
Rivera is second on the all time list at 532.

Up until this point, Rivera has been chasing a moving target. Now it will probably stay still with 62 saves between them.

He's not getting it this year... but he also has shown no signs of slowing down. Rivera already has 6 saves and an ERA of 0.00.

That's slightly lower than Hoffman's.

If Hoffman's closing days are over, Rivera should pass Hoffman sometime in 2011.

And the biggest case for Hoffman's Hall of Fame candidacy, being the All Time Saves leader, would be gone before he was even eligible for the vote.

I have nothing against Hoffman personally. He seems like a good charitable guy and his teammates don't have a bad word to say about him. But as I wrote before I think he is a smidge overrated.

A specialist like a closer needs to consistently come up big in the big game. Rivera certainly has. Hoffman has not.

Having the biggest save total of all time isn't like the Home Run crown, or getting 300 wins or 3,000 hits. It's not an automatic punched ticket to Cooperstown.

Jeff Reardon passed Rollie Fingers to be the All TIme Saves leader as a member of the 1992 Red Sox. Reardon is not a Hall of Famer.

Lee Smith passed Reardon. He's not in the Hall either.

When the two were teammates briefly with the 1990 Red Sox, it wasn't considered to be a meeting of All Time greats.


The fourth most saves in history belong to John Franco.

I don't think even the biggest Met fans I know consider him to be a Hall of Famer.

This isn't a slam on Franco, Reardon nor Smith. I was a fan of both. And Reardon actually DID have the great post season highlight of clinching a World Series (with the 1987 Twins.)

But neither were considered to be All Time Great difference making closers... like Gossage... or Fingers... or Eckersley... or Sutter... or even Hoyt Wilhelm.

They got a lot of saves for a lot of years and did so around the time that the closer became a one inning specialist. They stayed healthy for a long time and had solid careers... but did they change the dynamic of the game? Did managers manage differently knowing they were coming out of the pen like they do with Rivera?

I put Hoffman in the same category with Smith, Reardon and Franco... terrific career but as I wrote before, falls short of Cooperstown.

Saves are nice but not always a great barometer of greatness. Don't believe me?

Jose Mesa has more career saves than Goose Gossage. Who would you rather have in a big game? Hell, who would you rather have in a SMALL game?

But if saves are the short hand standard of a reliever's worth, it would be nice to see the All Time Saves leader be a Hall of Famer.

And when Mariano Rivera passes Trevor Hoffman some time next season, it will be so.

Some World Series love for second basemen

Did you know that Bobby Richardson is the only person to win the World Series MVP for a losing team?

Why would you?

I knew that, but I'm Sully and my brain is jam packed with stuff like that which won't help me get a new job.

But I figured out something else that is interesting (at least to me) regarding that World Series MVP from 1960.

He is the only second baseman to ever win the World Series MVP. If the 2010 World Series comes and a player from any other position drives home the MVP's car, then we'll have 50 years without a World Series MVP at second.

I know it isn't an earth shattering concept, but it struck me as odd.

Since 1973, we've had every single position covered.

The last catcher to win it? Pat Borders in 1992
The last first baseman? Willie Stargell in 1979.
The last shortstop? David Eckstein in 2006.
The last third baseman? Mike Lowell in 2007.
The last left fielder? Manny Ramirez in 2004.
The last center fielder? Reggie Jackson in 1973.
The last right fielder? Jermaine Dye in 2005.
The last Designated Hitter? Hideki Matsui in 2009.
The last left handed starting pitcher? Cole Hamels in 2008.
The last right handed starting pitcher? Josh Beckett in 2003.
The last reliever? Mariano Rivera in 1999.

But you have to go all the way back to 1960 for someone at second.
And come to think of it, that 1960 World Series was a damn good one for second basemen.

Richardson got the 11 hits, the .367 average, and 1.054 OPS... but Bill Mazeroski got the World Series walk off homer.

In the years since 1960, some second basemen have had World Series glory. Some were Hall of Famers... others were nobodys who shone on the big stage.

Light hitting Al Weis batted .417 with an OPS of 1.196 in the 1969 World Series. His 7th inning home run off of Dave McNally tied the clinching Game 5.




Future Hall of Famer Joe Morgan got the game winning hit of Game 7 of the 1975 World Series with 2 outs and 2 strikes in the 9th inning.




Willie Randolph homered off of future Hall of Famer Don Sutton in the Yankees Game 1 win in the 1977 World Series.






Phil Garner batted an eye popping .500 with a 1.238 OPS in the 7 game World Series of 1979. Only Willie Stargell's heroics kept him from being the second second baseman to win the World Series MVP




Perenial All Star Davey Lopes started key rallies in Games 3, 4 and 6 of the 1981 World Series to help the Dodgers come from behind and beat the Yankees.






Tiger great Lou Whitaker helped set up several rallies in the 1984 World Series including being on base for both of Alan Trammell's game 4 homers.




Frank White homered and drove in 3 runs to help the Royals escape a 3-0 hole in Game 3 of the 1985 World Series.





In a losing cause, Marty Barrett got 13 hits, batted .433 with an OPS of 1.014 for the Red Sox in the 1986 World Series. He would have been the MVP of the Series had that 10th inning gone differently for the Sox.




Steve Sax batted .300 in the Dodgers stunning victory over the A's in the 1988 World Series. His walk started the Dodgers first inning rally off of Dave Stewart in Game 4 that helped put the Dodgers in control of the series for good.






Chuck Knoblauch batted .308 in the 1991 World Series for the Twins. He helped start the decoy play in Game 7 to fool Lonnie Smith and set up the series winning run with a sacrifice bunt. Later with the Yankees he hit game tying homers in the 1998 and 1999 World Series.



In a losing cause, Mark Lemke hit .417 with an OPS of 1.170 in the 1991 World Series for the Braves. His 2 out walk off single in the 12th inning ended Game 3 and he scored the winning run in the bottom of the 9th of Game 4.





Roberto Alomar scored the winning run in the bottom of the 9th of Game 3 of the 1992 World Series. In 1993, he drove in 6 runs and batted .480 with an OPS of 1.159 as the Blue Jays won back to back titles.



Craig Counsell was involved with two World Series Game 7 come from behind victories. He tied Game 7 of the 1997 World Series in the 9th inning with a sacrifice fly and scored the title winning run for the Marlins in the 11th inning. In 2001, he was hit by a Mariano Rivera pitch setting up Luis Gonzalez's single that won the World Series for the Diamondbacks.



Luis Castillo drove in the first run of Game 6 of the 2003 World Series with a 2 out RBI single. It would turn out to be the World Series winner as the Marlins held on to a 2-0 victory.




Mark Bellhorn hit the game winning homer in Game 1 of the 2004 World Series. He also helped the Red Sox win Game 2 with a 2 run double off the center field wall.




Dustin Pedroia led off the 2007 World Series with a home run, setting the stage for the Red Sox sweep of the Rockies.





Chase Utley hit a 2 run homer in the first inning of Game 1 of the 2008 World Series that gave Cole Hamels all the run support he needed. In the 2009 World Series, he matched Reggie Jackson's record of 5 home runs.





Who knows? Maybe Utley or Pedroia could win the World Series MVP this year. Maybe Robinson Cano will win it for the Yankees. Maybe the Rays make it back to the series and Ben Zobrist will win it. Perhaps Dan Uggla, Ian Kinsler, Howie Kendrick, Ian Stewart or Rickie Weeks will win some hardware.

Or maybe we'll have to deal with 50 seasons without a second baseman winning the World Series MVP.

We may have to cope.

Meanwhile, enjoy the glory that is the 1960 World Series, the last glorious series for second basemen!

Sully Baseball Honors JERMAINE DYE

It looks like Jermaine Dye's days with the White Sox have come to an end.

Chicago declined to pick up his option and Dye goes into the winter a free agent.

He's 35 years old, had a HORRIBLE second half and the days of sluggers miraculously getting stronger in their late 30s seems to be over for some strange reason.

The White Sox need to get younger and bringing Dye back would be purely an emotional decision.

Now I am not a White Sox fan, but I have a soft spot in my heart for them. But I hope that the White Sox blogs are firing 21 gun salutes for Jermaine Dye.

In his 5 seasons in Chicago, he delivered big. An MVP caliber season in 2006. All Star numbers in 2008... and of course the World Series heroics.

His first inning homer in Game 1 of the 2005 World Series off of Roger Clemens set the tone for the series.

His phantom hit by pitch in Game 2 set up the Paul Kornerko slam.

His RBI single in Game 3 helped the White Sox come back from behind, setting up the 14 inning marathon.

And of course he drove in the only run of Game 4, singling off of Brad Lidge and gave the White Sox the title.

Think about how a Chicago pennant, let alone a World Series title, seemed so elusive.

White Sox fans who want to feel all warm and fuzzy inside should thank Dye for delivering the title that so many generations craved.

And petty White Sox fans should salute Dye for making sure a White Sox title arrived before a Cubs title. (And with the Lou Piniella era sputtering to a close, Sox fans might have that bragging right for a while longer!)

So let's see those blogs sending out love.

Jermaine Dye... get ready. Your number will be retired in Chicago before long.
(Just don't sign with the Cubs.)

No offense to Hideki Matsui... but Mariano Rivera was the MVP

Nobody is denying Hideki Matsui had a great Game 6 of the World Series. Heck he drove in 6 runs by himself.

His two run homer off of Pedro Martinez got the scoring started... and when the Phillies answered with a run of their own, Matsui got the 2 out 2 run single that made it clear the Yankees weren't getting caught.

I still don't think he was the MVP of the World Series.

It's not a bad choice. Picking Phil Hughes would have been bad.

Matsui batting .615... he homered 3 times... he drove in 8 runs in the 6 game series...

All terrific.

He wasn't the MVP of the World Series.

Not to be harsh, but in a 6 game Series, the MVP should probably start more than half the games. (Not always... Dusty Rhodes should have been the MVP of the 1954 World Series... but I digress)

In this post season, every single closer blew a must win game for their team...
except one.

In this World Series, the mantra for both teams was get into their vulnerable bullpen. As Hughes and Chamberlain became less and less reliable, the Phillies would be licking their chops when Girardi pulled the starter.

EXCEPT for one pitcher.

The Phillies went into the later part of the Series not sure who would even pitch the 9th.

And yet basically their strategy seemed to be "Make sure Mariano Rivera doesn't pitch."

If Rivera pitched, the game was over.

That's kinda sorta a cut and dry definition of a Series MVP.

I said this to my dad last night and he replied "Yeah, but doesn't Rivera already have one?"

The answer is yes. He won the 1999 World Series MVP and the 2003 ALCS MVP.

He deserved those. And he deserved this one.

I'm sure Rivera isn't losing sleep over this and Matsui has been a great Yankee and it is easy to forget that this is his first World Series ring (doesn't it seem like he belongs with the Riveras, Posadas, Jeters and Pettittes as guys who have won a few?)

But when Rivera came out in the 8th, the roar of the crowd was that of people who knew the game (and the World Series title) was theirs.

They were right.

Because Rivera, the most valuable player of the series, was in the game.